TR- What differentiates your label from a major label?

We want to stay small. We operate Asian Man Records like a family…there are no contracts, bands are free to come and go if they want. We want our bands to be happy, and we try to pick bands that we really feel a connection with. Mike started the label because he loves music, and that always comes first.

TR- What is the most difficult aspect of your job that a typical music fan wouldn’t be aware of?

Saying NO! No really, it sounds mean, but this is something I am trying to learn…basically doing promotion and just working here, I think people assume I can just send them free stuff at will or sign any old band. It just doesn’t work

that way. We try to do stuff thoughtfully, not just do mass mailings and blindly promote things. We can’t afford $300 ads, or streetteams that give away mass amounts of senseless promo items…We want to do alot of new and interesting things, but we want them to have meaning, I guess.

TR- How important is it to be in a major market city, for a band and for a label, vs. being in a smaller market?

?? It doesn’t really mean anything to us, as far as “how far you can go” in a big city vs. a suburb. I guess maybe the important thing is to have a sense of community. I like that idea.

TR- What is your favorite label?

Dischord.

TR- Why do you consider Dischord one of your favorite labels, what’s your criteria?

I can’t really say I have a favorite, it’s more that I really admire Dischord for all the music they put out, their ideas, the things they support. I like that they work out of the house. I like that they support what’s going on locally in DC. I like that they are accessible.

TR- Don’t you feel the D.C. scene is so insular compared to other cities?

I feel like that question implies that DC is a box, like a freezer or something. No, I don’t think that a city can be “insular”…people are free to come and go, exchange ideas, how can it be insular? It’s not like if you aren’t from DC you can’t play there or go to a show. It’s funny because I wonder why people have that assumption…just because Dischord signs only DC bands? That’s silly…It just doesn’t make sense. Talk to me more about this…

TR- Many seem to consider Dischord the indie-leaders since they have managed to remain outside the mainstream yet musically successful, but it seems there are not too many indie labels that are yelling loud enough to get widespread recognition on the current issues. …Should we be looking to indie labels to be taking a stronger stand against, or for, Napster. Or even for political causes that influence musicians. Why do their voices seem so quiet?

I don’t think that you have to be politically active to have a smaller label. I mean it’s kind of inherent that if you are staying outside of the mainstream music world, then you are in essence making a statement already…but I don’t know if you have to take a stand for certain issues. I feel like it’s important to me. There are so many great labels that are doing great stuff stuff politically, socially, etc., and that’s really inspiring. I don’t know for me, I know I have to choose my battles, too…I don’t give a shit about Napster, really. There are so many other things that are meaningful to me that I should give my energy to.

TR- Why aren’t more indie bands actively involved in political discussions?

Same as above, I think.

TR- Why have politics become so “uncool”? Could this be a reason why so many fans out there download mp3 files without thinking twice?

I think it’s just the trend these days…the swing from a time when people felt like it was important to be politically and socially aware. It’s just hard for me to see and hear bands that are so careless about their words and actions, just acting stupid at the costs of others and then justifying it by saying “Oh, we’re just trying to be funny, and get a rise outta people”. I am talking about racism and sexism especially.

TR- Are indie bands even the underground anymore? And if not them, who is?

I think it used to be that if you weren’t playing mainstream music, if you weren’t on the radio or on a major label, then you had no choice but to be underground….Things are different now.

TR- How did you get into the music biz?

For Mike, he’s been in music for a long time…as a frontman for Skankin Pickle, and then with the label and The Chinkees…He’s always had a passion for it. For me, it was an accident!

TR- Generally what do you think about the prevalence of mp3s and the whole Napster Phenomenon?

Hmmm, I think it’s all blown out of proportion. Mp3’s and downloadable music is just another format…I am one of those old computer weary folks, I think, ’cause I just can’t seem to care all that much about it…

TR- Do you believe that the “record” is going to become obsolete in favor of structures like the subscription system that some labels are toying with, and how do you think this change in music delivery changes the way the public looks at bands.

Good question. I think it’s always been that way…people trying to find the new thing first and then forgetting the old. 78’s, 7inches, LP’s, 8-track, tapes, CD’s, MP3’s, beta, VHS, DVD… But I’ve tried not to be too concerned with that. I mean, Mike still makes vinyl here. I am always somewhere between thinking how sad it is that no one buys vinyl anymore and being super excited when I see one of our releases in that big beautiful 12″ format! I guess it comes back to the fact that we like the smaller, old fashioned (so funny to think of it like that…) ways of doing stuff. That’s where our hearts are.

TR- Do you believe the labels, both major and indie, had the responsibility to see this coming and should’ve prepared themselves better?

I guess the people who are crying over it now should’ve been more prepared…then I wouldn’t have to hear them bitching about how they are getting ripped off.

TR- What do you think is in the future for small labels in relation to Napster?

I just have to hope that there are still bands and listeners who have values like us. I think there are. We’ll just try to keep doing what we are doing for as long as we can.

TR- Do you believe there will ever be any regulation, any royalty paying system for downloaded mp3s?

Yes, if someone can find a way to make money off of it, they will…

TR- Do artists lose credibility the more music becomes easily stolen and/or easily downloaded?

I do think that people who download music should think about where that music comes from. I think that’s one of my biggest gripes about the whole issue of downloaded music. Like when you get an LP or even a CD, you go to the store and you look for it, or you send away your money and then wait for it to come in the mail, or someone gives it to you, or you collect it, and then you have a very solid, tangible thing. It’s been made by someone, a band, a CD manufacturer, a label, and you can feel all time and energy and all that. But when you download a song, you get a number, and usually you don’t even get the whole album. Sometimes, you only know the band’s name or the song’s name. You can download it, listen to it for 30 seconds and then send it to the trash. So there’s a kind of detachment from the recorded music itself…

TR- Does music have a significant cultural value that is a necessary element in the survival in a culture like in the US?

Of course, anyone who listens to music or who plays music knows it’s value. Or at least they should know.

TR- Do you believe in the theory that every band has to have a hit single in order to make it?

What’s a hit single?

TR- What issues would you like to see Tranjka discuss in future editions?

I am really interested in music communities and how they function.

TR- Do you mean local scenes where the bands help each other out or do you mean actual bunch o’ bands living in one building, recording studio in basement, trying to get something together?

Either, or acutally, both…I think that both those ideas are really important and interesting…

TR- Why is a music community important?

That’s like asking why is there music? Yeah, you could just sit in your room and play your heart out to just yourself, but really I think music is really about communication. If there was no community, who would hear your music, who would be at the show, who would hang flyers, who would hang out, who would give you support, who would you practice with…all those kind of questions…A community is a moment in time for a band, i think, does that make sense?

Having Luna and Superdrag on your roster, do you feel you are the label that offers bands the opportunity to take their careers into their own hands after dealing with life in the majors?

arena rock releases music we like whether it’s pre-major or post-major. superdrag was our very first release well before they went to a major. we’ve remained fans and it’s good to have them back. as far as luna…i loved their major label records and this was just a great opportunity. most of our bands have not had major record deals but if anyone is unhappy where they are then they should have another option. i guess we’re the “single boy-in-waiting”.

How many bands do you have on your label?

arena rock has less than five current acts. big dynamite…small package.

Why did those bands decide to put out records with your label?

with superdrag…our very first release was a seven inch by them. i remained in touch and love their music. with luna…their manager knew arena rock and contacted me when they were dropped from elektra and then again when their most recent label went belly-up.

What type of suggestions do you make to the bands on your label?

no shiny shirts! if there’s a song on yer new record that everyone in the room is screaming for….you should play it. show up for in-stores.

What differentiates your label from a major label?

arena rock is essentially my partner and i. there aren’t a million people to “approve” everything so we have a close relationship with our artists. the artists are mostly in control with our opinions, of course. we don’t force them into doing anything they don’t want to do although it IS our money and we make suggestions from time to time. we do, however, have major distribution (ADA). any buyer at a record store can now get our records when they order nirvana, girls against boys, superchunk or most other indie stuff. it’s no longer much of a problem when our artists are out on tour and go into a local shop to see if their records are there. if they aren’t in stock it’s because the store didn’t pay the bills. our artists DO get to stay at the arena rock headquarters here in brooklyn instead of the parmount in nyc. that can be good or bad depending on how drunk they get. i end up having to make the beds.

How often do you listen to unsolicited materials? Do you want to?

i listen about once a month to a pile that accumulates in our headquarters.

What is the most difficult aspect of your job that a typical music fan wouldn’t be aware of?

a typical music fan is going to buy whatever he/she chooses. once we decide to release something our asses are on the line both financially and creatively. no one sees you when you walk into a store and inconspicuously buy a copy of cristopher cross’ first record. if we released that…we’d be in some serious shit.

Do you have a day job or do you live off the label?

i have a day job at a major label. i take “the man’s” money and give it to the kids. a real modern day robin hood.

Do you feel distributors have a heavy hand in indie music? Such as if you aren’t that big it’s harder to get them to distribute your records?

you are 100 percent correct. why would they want to take something they can’t sell. they have to stay in business as well. there’s only so much charity you can give and stay alive. we’ve managed to that on our label. i’m not telling which acts. honest, it’s great to have credible acts but you gotta pay the bills. geffen got nirvana by having sonic youth.

How important is it to be in New York City, or any other major market city, for a band and for a label?

i don’t think it matters where you choose to live and start a label. take merge for instance. mac and laura have been there for ages and have had success on their own terms. i like them because not only are they decent folks but they release different types of music without the attitude. they also pay less rent.

But didn’t Mac get his training here in NYC as a student at Columbia, cut his teeth in the biz so to speak? He also spent all those years touring making those connections in order to get his label together?

i’m not sure of mac’s background. i don’t think he needed connections to

begin his label. it just takes a bit of heart and a hard head.

Why do you stay in New York?

my day job. this city’s addictive.

What is your favorite rock city?

i don’t really have one. that’s the toughest question you’ve asked.

What is your favorite label?

i don’t really have a favorite label. as mentioned, merge is great. hell, i like our label if i must choose one. i will tell you that i don’t like labels that specify in just one genre. they may be good at what they’re doing but in my opinion, they’re being close-minded.

How did you get into the music biz?

my parents were divorced when i was very young. music pacified me. i read every liner note to almost every record in the 70’s. i loved it. when i graduated college i saved up enough money from waiting tables and working at record stores and moved to nyc. i did a fanzine. i met publicists. i went to shows. my pal, dan, (who’s now my partner) had the idea and i knew a band and said “why not?”.

Generally what do you think about the prevalence of mp3s and the whole Napster Phenomenon?

i’m not sure how i feel about it. i always wanted to buy a record…support the local music store and end up with the entire package in my hands.

Do you believe that the “record” is going to become obsolete in favor of structures like the subscription system that some labels are toying with, and how do you think this change in music delivery changes the way the public looks at bands?

well, it’s all radio at major labels. as far as how the public views bands…live is the best setting. i’d rather see a bad band on stage sweating it out rather than “streaming” a video/song or watching some guy with baggy trousers spinning a record. i wear baggy boxers and play records at home. i don’t need that when i’m out at night. let’s have the band play or just get me to an old man bar and i’ll play the jukebox.

What’s your favorite old man bar in NYC?

i can’t share that. i do love milano’s on houston street…turkey’s nest in williamsburg…greenpoint tavern in williamsburg…and a couple old man, polish bars in my ‘hood.

What bar has the best jukebox?

i like the jukebox at the tile/international bar. the replacements “tim” is always good to drink to. the best jukebox i’ve EVER heard is in a brooklyn bar called o’connors. it’s got pretty things, kinks, pavement plus it features area musicians. i think any great jukebox should have around 20% local music. the bartender is a guy named, spike priggen. he provides the juke with the great selection and is a musician himself. o’connors is also in arena rock’s “top ten bars in the country” list.

What do you think of the “scene” concept and its seemingly demise here in NY?

i’ve never understood why there’s no “indie scene” here. it’s not much of a community in terms of helping each other out like there seemed to be in austin, athens and then seattle. maybe it’s because it’s such a dog-eat-dog city…every man for himself. beats me.

Have you seen the bartender’s at enid’s blow fire? Is that the closest place to where one can find the scene in NY?

enid’s is so up it’s own ass although clay and ms. lola are cool bartenders. it’s really a “scene” but in a thrift store sort of way. man, i don’t care what you say…i’m not growing my mullet again.

Do you believe the labels, both major and indie, had the responsibility to see this mp3 thing coming and should’ve prepared themselves better?

i don’t think as an indie label you “plan” for technology. we have our website and we sell things there (www.arenarockrecordingco.com). i just want to release music that we feel passionate about and if a new record store opens on mars…you’ll be able to find it there.

What do you think is in the future for small labels in relation to Napster?

i’ve never downloaded a record from napster. a few of our bands are for it. i don’t like seeing our promos on ebay. it rips off the kids. any journalist who sells our records there should be gutted.

Do you believe there will ever be any regulation, any royalty paying system for downloaded mp3s?

i think artists should be payed for what they sell. it’s sad but i think many kids don’t care about an entire full-length these days and that depresses me.

What can we do to change the kids’ minds about getting back into the album?

god, i don’t know. maybe have them smell the gatefold.

Do artists lose credibility the more music becomes easily stolen and/or easily downloaded?

i’m not much for what is considered “credible”. it’s all subjective to the listener. mellencamp isn’t credible most circles but i love him. i loved the new radicals record too. i listened to that more than i did the latest sonic youth or fugazi record.

Do musicians in general loose credibility with the mass popular audience when their music becomes free on Napster?

i don’t think they lose credibility. they lose money (in my opinion).

Do you think there is a rift growing within the “underground” between those that don’t care about the hit and those that want the music to keep living?

i feel the only rift between “underground” and “popular” is from people who have nothing better to do. i can’t be bothered.

Does music have a significant cultural value that is a necessary element in the survival in a culture like in the US?

i’m not sure that music is “necessary for survival” but when you think of procreation it’s difficult to imagine it without the sounds of barry white or galaxy 500 in the background.

Do you believe in the theory that every band has to have a hit single in order to make it?

it depends on what level. on a major label these days…yes. even a band like radiohead had to have a hit single in order to gain the attention they’re getting these days. i’m not a fan but i respect them. they’d never be on the cover of spin without “creep” a few years ago. i don’t see shellac on the cover of spin. then again, there are bands that have had a hit single and can’t get arressted by the time the second record gets released. it’s completely fucked.

You don’t see shellac on the cover of spin because mr. albini is so damn scary. Is he the producer of our indie era, and if not who is?

i don’t like his attitude. his mommy didn’t buy him an atari when he was a little boy and now he’s angry.

Do you wish there was more rock AND ROLL in contemporary music rather than indie-rock or rock?

that’s the second hardest question you’ve asked. are you stoned? i like rock and roll. rock ain’t so bad every now and then. deep purple’s highway star fucking “rocked”!

What issues would you like to see Tranjka discuss in future editions?

more 80’s bands. let’s hear it for cutting crew, hooters, mr. mister, winger and honeymoon suite!!!!

Hey, I saw the Hooters in 1988 at the pier on west 45th street, they rocked! They opened for Squeeze! Do you miss songwriters like those guys, songs with story lines and not necessarily songs about girls?

i can’t believe you liked the hooters. i loved them. saw them in birmingham, alabama opening for loverboy. i liked them too. fuck it. let’s not even get started about the outfield “play deep” record…

What is your favorite 80’s band and why?

it was probably U2 or the hooters if you must know. naw, it’s gotta be the replacements.

What is the best album of the 90’s?

tie: shack “hms fable” or flaming lips “transmissions from the satellite heart”

What bands do you feel aren’t getting the attention they deserve?

all of mine (laughs). our illyah kuryahkin records are some my favorite of all time. great press equals no sales.

Learm more about The Arena Rock Recording Co by visitng their website at http://www.arenarockrecordingco.com

This lineup was together for about 2 months before we recorded “Flowers in June”.

TR: If you were to make a family tree for your band what bands are your parents and ancestors?

Do you mean bands that influenced us or who we’re conected with directly?

I think we are a song band. So that would put us in the same line as a lot of classic 60’s rock, we all grew up in the 70’s and 80’s so we were influenced by Metal, New Wave, and Punk . And of course, the 90’s were the college years so, yea, we are influenced by alternative and indie rock too.

Here’s a list of players we are connected with:

Sam Densmore’s Silverhawk

Paul Elkins, Dai Kelly and Sam Densmore

Sam Densmore Discography: Slow Children CD, “da sein”, 1996, Running Records, Frequency db 7″ 1997, Running Records, Frequency db CD “Blue Down Where the Diver Goes”, produced by Jeremy Wilson of the Dharma Bums/Pilot, Resistor Records, Producer/Guitarist on Ted Connelly CD, “tedconnelly.com”, 2000, Achernar Productions. Rob Allison of Two Ton Boa/Frequency db sang back up vocals and co wrote the title track to “Flowers in June”, he also played drums on “tedconnelly.com”. Rob is currently in another band with Brian Sparhawk, which has no name yet. Two Ton Boa also featured Brian Sparhawk of Fitz of Depression.

TR: How often do you tour? Nationally or locally?

We tour as much as possible, year round. So far we’ve hit the west coast on I-5 and 101 from Bellingham to Los Angeles.

TR: How often do you practice as a band?

We tour a lot, so whenever we have a break.

TR: What recommendations would you make to other bands on music as a careeer choice?

Be ready to work your business because no one is going to do it for you.

TR: In general how important are band names?

Band names are important in that they give you an identity to the consumer of your work. So if you have the same name as someone else, it’s a good idea to change it or make sure it’s really yours before you use it. I like names with some symbolism or art in them, personally.

TR: Do you have a day job and what is it?

NO!

TR: What does it take to have a hit song?

Who knows? Timing maybe?

TR: Would you sell your songs to a pop-star band if they wanted to record them?

I’ll have to think about that one…>

TR: Would you be happy being a one hit wonder?

As long as I can play full time, I don’t care if I ever have a “Hit’. One hit would be nice. Who wouldn’t want more if you could have them?

TR: Do you feel the merger of AOL and Time Warner will really mess things up, or make cross entertainment (MSNBC/NBCi, CBS-VIACOM, ABC-DISNEY) the new positive standard for the future?

I think it is ineveitable that the corporate music structure will continue to benefit and scratch it’s own back whenever possible.

TR: Do musicians in general lose credibility with the mass popular audience as their music becomes free as traded mp3s on the Internet?

No. It’s just that now you can find the hard to get stuff.

TR: What do you think is going to happen with Napster?

I have no idea. My computer is still too weak to run it, so I haven’t been a part of the so called Napster revolution in the music biz.

TR: Where do you get most of your music? Online stores, traditional record stores?

I get most of my music at record stores, or people send me music or give it to me.

TR: What % is indie vs. major? Indie is “Independent”. Period. Without corporate funding/underwriting. There are as many different types of indie music as there are stars in the sky, I’m almost sure of it.

TR: What bands do you feel aren’t getting the attention they deserve?

Smog. Audio Wreck.

TR: Are indie bands even the underground anymore? And if not them, who is?

Indie Bands are totally the underground. Look at the mainstream right now. Big rock bands are bands like Radiohead, Ozzy and then you have POP, hip hop, etc. But indie rock is not the flavor of the moment. I tour a lot. I see a lot of underground indi bands. I don’t see many underground Backstreet Boys. Imagine that…

TR: What influence do you think our new president will have on indie music?

I think that it will be like the 80’s all over again. everyone gets to feeling kind of aggro under the republican rule. We bomb the Iraqi’s, people write anti war songs. The leftists unite. I heard somebody say thet the Republican win will actually do more to unite alternative political groups into action. Now they have to protect what they worked for and work ten times harder to get what they want in the future. Considering what most of us know as “indie”, indie music reflects the ideas of the left. I think people will get more outspoken and extreme than ever. We’ll see.

Learn more about Silverhawk at http://www.popsweatshop.com

TR: How long has us|against|them been up for and whose brainchild was it?

u|a|t has been around since april of last year. I guess you can say it was the brainchild of mark and myself after venting a litte frustration concerning the lack of any real viable music weblog/zine concerned with the indie scene. We were also a little annoyed with the lack of any real critical writing on music in the online arena. Aside from a few notables then, everyone just seemed to be stroking each other’s ego, like in a big scenester clique. It was pretty bad.

TR: How many times have you changed its format since it started?

Our editorial format really hasn’t changed since inception. We’re still committed to reporting an any news, reviews, etc. and adding our own biting commentary. One of our mottos is “if we have nothing to say about it, we won’t bother with it”. We’ve expanded a bit with what we offer (features, columns, radio) but our purpose is still the same. For the record, we’ve gone through one site design.

TR: Do you guys sit in an office together?

Not at all. Mark and myself are in Arlington, VA, Jeff’s in LA and Eric is stuck in Dover, DE. One thing people don’t realize about u|a|t is that it’s done during whatever free time we have at work, home, whatever. We all have full-time jobs and are involved in a bunch of other projects outside of u|a|t.

TR: Arlington, are you near Inner Ear Studios (the seeming mother of D.C. music production)?

Not really. Inner Ear is a few miles away, in another part of town.

TR: Are you the ground zero for must have info for the indie enthusiast?

I wouldn’t say that. We don’t cover the whole spectrum of indie music as much as we would like. We each like different genres of the indie scene so we naturally tend to report on those things. We’re currently looking to expand on that by adding new people to the team.

TR: What was the best show you ever saw?

That’s tough one. Probably either Jane’s Addiction in ‘91, or Quicksand in ‘94, or Hurl sometime in ‘97, or even Cursive this past year. I’ve seen some really good shows but not one stands out as the best ever.

TR: Can you tell me where those favorite show were?

Jane’s was at Lollapalooza at Great Woods in MA (an outdoor ampitheatre), Quicksand in Buffalo in some club (the Icon maybe?), Hurl at the Bug Jar in Rochester NY, a great place, and Cursive at the First Unitarian Chruch in Philly.

TR: What is the best venue in the country?

I don’t really have a favorite venue. I like different venues for different reasons (crowd, sound, decor, etc) so it’s kind of hard to guage one against the other. But I do have a least favorable venue.

TR: What is your least favorite venue?

Has to be the Wilson Center here in DC. Yes, I am aware of all the history the Center has, how the whole DC scene started there, but that all doesn’t make it for the terrible acoustics. I can deal with slimy door people, cheap bartenders etc, but the reason I’m there is to hear a band. That’s the bottom line.

TR: What happened to punk rock? Is it commercialism or apathy or no doubt?

I think the big thing that’s kind of killing punk rock is the lack of activism in the scene. Back in the day, there was a lot more involvement from young punks and bands in fighting for causes, protesting, benefits, writing songs about bringing down the man and all of the injustice in the world. Now everyone’s singing about the girl who went away, not feeling good about themselves blah blah. It’s kind of killed the fire, diminished the importance of punk rock. You can say “it’s just music” but it wasn’t always “just music”. It was always about something more. You can even go as far as to say that you can blame the death of punk to the rise in popularity and commercialism of west coast/cali punk. They were always about taking care of themselves first anyway. Definitely not the way it was out here in the East Coast.

TR: Are indie labels trying to hard to mimic the majors in order to turn a buck rather than be the doorway to music that is hard to get your ears on?

I think indie labels have become more aware of the reality that they have to make some money in order to keep running. Today, with it being so easy to release your own record, you have to do more get your music heard, exposed to new people. And that stuff requires money. I think label owners have become aware of that and have started to do some of things that majors do that labels ten, five years ago didn’t like hire a press agent, have someone handle radio, etc.

TR: What labels are putting out stuff that you consider punk-worthy?

It’s kind of hard today to really find a label that has any clear cut vison. Everyone’s roster has become pretty diversified, with all kinds of different sounds and types of bands, like punk, hardcore, indie-pop, electronic, ambient, post-rock, etc. It’s definitely evident of the indie scene today, with it’s vast range of sounds and styles. Besides old standbys like Dischord and Touch & Go, one label that comes to mind that, to me, still hold true to their punk ideals is No Idea Records. Everything, from their roster to their distro. In attitude, quality, and in “doing it for the kids”, there’s nothing more punk than No Idea.

TR: Where do you think indie music is going? More folk, more pop, more hip hop?

Definitely not hip-hop. Sadly enough it’s looking to go more pop. That might be a good thing since it’s a sound that can be accepted by far more others than math rock or post rock. But there’s just so much one can do within the pop song contraints, so there’s no real room for innovation.

TR: What bands should we be listening to?

In terms maintaining some sort of throwback to the punk ideals of yesterday, bands like Milemarker, Boy Sets Fire kind of have that fire, wanting to make people stop and think and question things. And then there’s always Propagandhi. They’re still around, aren’t they?

TR: Do you think new bands along with the greater separation of the mainstream/major acts from the indie-world and the greater expense of touring than it used to be, will create a new music scene based on the local?

No, I wouldn’t think so. You can only go so far staying local. I’ve seen a few great bands do great locally, but never take off anywhere else. Even with the new distro models available today (like everything the Interner has to offer), bands still need to tour and get their name and sound out there. Creating a buzz about yourself is the surefire way to go.

TR: Do you think cities/regions will further develop their own sounds?

I think with the greater opportunity to hear and read about new different kinds of music we’ll seldom see any certain geographic location adhere to a certain sound. For example, the San Diego chaotic hardcore sound can be now be seen in bands from St. Louis, NYC, Baltimore. What was considered the DC Dischord sound can be heard from bands in Boston and Seatle. The whole Midwest emo-pop sound is everywhere.

TR: And do you think this will increase the amount of music venues where new bands can play?

Music venues will come and go because it’s so hard to make enough cash to keep a place operational. They usually have to have other parts of the venue (like alcohol, non live music dance nights) make enough money to cover the losses posted by the nights that live bands play.

TR: Do you think there is an audience, will there be an audience for this localized music?

There’s always an audience for any music, local or genre driven. How large and supporting is another question.

TR: Or does the Internet and Internet radio become the new venue for bands to seek a wider audience?

Initially it looked like that Internet would be a great way for new bands to be heard but now it’s so saturated with every band thinking the same idea. A listener is given thousands and thousands of choices. How does he or she know who to check out over another unknown band? Nine out of ten chances they’ll go for the act they heard a little something about, the buzz that’s been going around.

TR: Does it take a good booking agent or management to make it in this biz?

Good booking agent would be my pick. They’ll get the good shows to get the best exposure to generate the largest buzz and so on. I think that’s the way to go.

TR: I’ve read at us|against|them that you don’t like Jets to Brazil or Burning Airlines? Whats wrong with the old guys still rockin’.

There’s nothing wrong with old guys rocking. Ian MacKaye still rocks and he’s older than any of them. Jets to Brazil and especially Burning Airlines just don’t do it for me. I really think that if they were some new band without any of the history, they would not be considered nowhere near as good as they are perceived. Jets and Airlines are nowhere near the caliber and quality as their previous bands. Nor do they have to be. I understand it’s different directions and sound than the old stuff. I knew not to expect Jawbox when first seeing Airlines. I was actually expecting something a lot different. Instead I felt I got a two bit imposter. I still give them the chance to surprise me and win me over, but they haven’t yet.

TR: Do you think the reduction in “music with a cause” or “music that makes the audience think” is related to the mass distribution of sex and violence on TV and the Internet and that fans just want their music to make them feel good. That they turn to new bands for “fun” since they feel disillusioned by the culture in general (this is a bit a of a reach here, but I wonder if the kids these days feel that they “can’t do anything about it anyway” and look to music for escape rather than to excite their sense of rebellion)?

No, I wouldn’t say that. If anything, the abundance of sex and violence in media desensitizes everyone. It has become such common fare that the lines of what’s decent and respectable and common have become completely blurred to the individual, at times dangerous to a select few. If you had to point to some sort of outside factor contributing to the “dumbing down” of the scene, you could arguably say it’s an indirect cause of a booming economy. When times are good, no one wants to hear about the injustices of the world, especially when you don’t experience it first hand. We had a booming economy in the eighties to go along with a fluff and image conscious music scene. When the recession hit in the late eighties, early nineties, there was a sudden need for change. It seemed like everyone was protesting, talking about what’s wrong, bringing awareness to all kinds of issues and injustices. With things looking peachy keen, no one seems to care. Except for Zack De La Rocha. He’s such a martyr.

check out the us|against|them site at http://www.usagainstthem.org

This interview was conducted on September 15, 2000 before Shiner’s performance at Brownies in New York City. This interview was conducted by Jason (TR), the editor of Tranjka.net.

TR- We’ve been talking about Mp3.com’s legal fight with Universal, and Napster basically being shut down at all the colleges. Different people taking sides, obviously different musicians have been taking sides for it; Dr. Dre is against it, Lars is against it. Then you have guys like Limp Biizkit that are for it. Generally what do you guys think about this whole sudden mp3-ness and the whole Napster Phenomenon?

Allen- It seems to me that the labels have been sorely remiss in getting their shit together. They should have been on this and finding a way to make it, because it’s an inevitability…

Paul – On a way to make money.

Allen – Yeah, they should of found a way a long time ago if they’re really that concerned about it, they were fools about it, because they haven’t taken it in their own hands. I think now, at this infant stage, it’s probably helpful for a lot of people. I think it maybe helpful, you know, you may find out in five years it may have been helpful. It may also do exactly what Lars and Dre are talking about, is taking art from people who are busting their asses for it, and they say you’re bringing down, it takes the power out of the big label’s hands and all that, I agree, but behind the big labels are artists who make money and it also takes the money out of indie labels, and behind that are individual artists. I see pros and cons for each side, basically I think the labels have been…

Paul – They’ve slacked.

Allen – …should’ve found a way to make a royalty inducing, you know what I mean…

TR- They should’ve figured something out, they shouldn’t have let it go so far.

Paul – It’s definitely not a surprise, really, the technology had been in the works for a long time, right down to bootleg CD’s, now you can actually make CDR’s and you can bootleg any CD you want the technology has been around forever, they’ve kept it from the consumer market.

Josh- They were worried about cassettes at one point.

Paul- Yeah.

Josh- It’s a joke now. At first I felt really threatened by it because with the amount of records we sell it could definitely effect a band like us more than a Metallica obviously, but, I’ve since come to realize that it can only do good, anything that gets the bands name out and people hearing the songs, is good. I’ don’t’ think it’s gonna, because you can have a whole record on mp3 and burn your own disc of it but if you go to the show and you see it there with the artwork and everything, I think you’re still going to want it. People have given me the promo the copy of a record.

Paul – And I’ll still go buy the record.

Josh- Which is ultimately the same thing, I still want the record.

Allen- And sometimes the people who have downloaded it off the Internet are people who maybe are fringe buyers anyway who probably wouldn’t have bought it in the store it seems like you know.

TR- That’s what they’re saying.

Allen – And you may gain fans by that if they end up with this blank disc that has the tunes on it ultimately they’re gonna want, if they really like it, that marginal buyer who could go either way, they end up really liking it, they’ll go get it, or get the backlog, back catalogue. (Pause) they want to see artwork, I think that’s the key too. I really do.

TR- You guys sell CD’s on the road? Have you seen a difference there?

Allen- In our sales?

TR- Yes.

Josh- It’s hard to know.

Paul- For us it’s really hard to gauge because our sales are…

Allen- Different each time.

Paul-…semi-sporadic; just because we had gone for a long time without having a record out. Whenever we have something new obviously its going to sell, so it’s hard to tell.

TR- What do the guys at Owned and Operated say about it, because you guys have your album embedded at your site.

Allen- On the site.

TR- Right, where people can go and listen to it.

Allen- Well they can go and listen to it, but that’s not an O and O run thing that’s our own thing.

TR- Well, do they mind that, as a label vs. the band?

Allen – No, they don’t mind that, I had considering offering several songs as a teaser or something like that, but it’s already out of my hands, it’s already on Napster, it’s already on other sites

P- We’ve got bootleg shows out there that can be downloaded.

TR- On Napster?

Josh- People have come up to me and asked me about songs.

Paul- New songs that we’ve played live.

Josh -They didn’t know thew song titles so its just ”untitled” so now there’s a few songs floating around the Internet that are untitled by Shiner.

Allen- It’s out of our hands at this point, which is such…

Josh- I think it’s awesome.

Allen- …I do too; it’s such an inevitability though, you know, it’s such a reality,

Josh- Yeah, and they’re songs that might or might not end up on our new record, we don’t know and I think its cool that there’s somewhere, out there are…

Paul- Performances whether they are good or not.

Allen- But since its at such an infant stage there will be some, there is going to be some regulation of it.

Jason- It’s going to be really complicated.

TR- Well, what do you think, ideally what would happen?

Jason- Man I don’t know, the things I do know are radio stations have to make playlists of the things they play and report to ascap and bmi and what not.

Paul- Yeah, that’s a whole monkey wrench of a thing.

Jason- And the other thing as I think about that stuff is what kind of effect does that have on record stores?

TR-mp3 stuff?

Jason-Yeah.

TR-Oh, it’s huge.

Jason- What, you know, I don’t understand how…

P- On top of that online sales have been beating the shit out of record stores.

Jason- Right.

Josh- But what if the record store was to go online download the whole record…

Allen – well that’s a novel idea, why didn’t, you know they should’ve fucking figured that shit out a long time ago.

Josh- I think I’m going to open my own record store. And charge seven bucks.

TR- Well then they’d sue.

Paul- Well that’s theft.

Josh- So are promo copies; they have them for sale in every record store.

Paul- In LA you can get records there before they come out.

Jason- Well, why wouldn’t Napster be theft in that case then?

Paul- Because they’re not selling it.

Jason- But the people that are downloading it are getting it for free.

Josh- But it comes from another person’s computer, Napster doesn’t do anything but hook the people up.

Allen- let’s not forget Napster is getting rich on this shit.

Paul- That’s from advertising.

Allen- Yeah I know, regardless they’re still turning a profit.

Josh- They just provide the software.

Allen- They’re still turning a huge profit.

TR- What they came out with, the figure is that 10% of all Napster users actually put the music out there. And the other 90% just download it. These are the figures everyone is using to say Napster will put the small record stores out of business and is going to put the small labels out of business. I don’t see many small labels doing anything about this except putting more mp3s out and one side is, yeah its positive because it gets the bands music out there, but I think, and this is where it gets a little political maybe, do you think free mps devalue music?

Allen- I think it does.

Paul- Of course it does.

Allen – I think it makes it, I heard Pete Townsend talking about this the other day and I completely agree, in an article, I fully think that it makes it this worthless currency after a while and it tends to devalue it…

Paul- Any time there is mass saturation like that.

Allen – You can get it for free whenever you want, when you go out and see the band it takes it out, it takes away from it.

Paul- It definitely takes away from it.

Jason- I don’t know, I’m still waiting for that revolution, wondering what its going to be.

Josh- Music is out there to be heard,

Jason- I wonder if this is it, you know.

TR- The music is out there to be heard?

Allen -But if we can’t make money from it, how are we going to do it? Who’s going to want to do it? What happens, is it that it gets so saturated everybody kind of gives up making music until it starts over again?

Josh- Let’s weed out the chaff, that’s fine, let’s get rid of all those that are doing it, you know…

Allen – It could be us; it could put us out of business.

Josh- I don’t think it will.

Allen- I hope it doesn’t, it’s at such an infant stage.

Josh- You don’t have to have cable TV, but you do. You don’t have to pay for your channels, but you do.

Allen – Well, I think there’s a threat….

Josh- It’s not really the same thing…

Allen – No, its kind of a…

Josh- You can get an antennae and watch “Friends” all you want to watch “Friends” but people are still paying up to seventy buck now usually for cable.

Allen – I think there’s a sense of lawfulness, fear of repercussions.

TR- Why do you think the people sharing files, using Napster, are not afraid, how all of a sudden…

Josh- Because its the Internet, its there.

TR- But guys like you guys who are in a band would want to do that to another band? Then you have fans that supposedly believe in your band. If they use Napster to listen to other bands music…To me it gets confusing.

Allen -It is confusing!

Paul- There’s a crossover.

TR- There are people downloading your mp3 for free, and even if they become your fan, do you feel there is some tension there?

Allen- And that’s our hard work.

Josh- Chances are they come to the show and buy something that’s not on Napster.

Allen- I guess, they’ll probably stay home and play Quake. Quake 4.

Josh- OK, now you’re burning me.

Allen- No offense, but you know what I’m saying, they’re home, I think they’re lives experience is devalued. Basically I think that as I said before the thing is in such an infant state, in a couple years we’ll start to see exactly…

Paul- Where it’s going.

Allen- What the payoff is as far as what it’s taking away from sales and record labels, record stores, bands, bands are like not able, are going we have, and also there is no way to check and see…is there a way to check and see which ones have been downloaded on Napster, who’s getting hit the most?

Paul- Like how many downloads?

TR- Yeah, you can trace…

Josh- Metallica came up the names of everyone who did it, everyone who downloaded their songs, they went in to the courtroom with names.

Allen -Right the stack, I saw that.

TR- The theory is that the people that run Napster and the other file sharing sites don’t understand the value of music to begin with. That for them it’s “hobby”, and that unfortunately is that the people that do it are the CEO’s of these dotcom co’s, technology people that have all the money. Can it be looked at as a class, not a revolution of sorts, but as an attack on artist who represent the culture. If it is what do you do to stop it? Would you try to get all your stuff removed from Napster or do you then flood the system with mp3s and set up your own mp3 site?

Allen – Exactly, I think, the later would probably be the result, there is a lot of confusing politics, and I don’t know if I have it worked out.

Jason- I definitely don’t. I try to drink myself away from that generally, but it does bum me out if I ever do think about it, so it must not be all that great.

Paul- Times are changing and the way music is made is changing, down to the fact that any band that gets together can record their own record basically if they have the skills and then they can go straight to mp3s and completely eliminate the record label. Which is also another facet. Records labels are becoming more, unnecessary I think.

TR- Your relationship with record labels; can you relate that to your relationship with record labels? You guys have been on Desoto and Hitit!, you have been on different labels, and from a fan point of view it looks like you guys are really trying to get your music out.

Allen – Yes.

TR- Like that’s’ the whole thing.

Paul- That is our number one goal, anything we release we want people to hear it, we want people to be ale to buy it when we record it. And we’ve just been trying our best to get the best scenario. We’re always looking for the solution.

Jason- That’s another story in itself. That whole world.

TR- Do you ever think you’re going to stop being on a label? Or do you think there is some sort of not prestige, but to be on a label that has history that has personality, and does that add something?

Paul- Of course it does.

Allen – Absolutely,

Paul- It gains buyers just by what type of reputation it has and the people that run it. I think that had a lot to do with immediate sales of a lot of things.

Allen – I do definitely believe that music is being devalued. If everything is free, what makes things rare, I really think that’s an issue. It will tend too weed certain people out who aren’t as committed, it will weed it out I think.

Paul- But there is also less commitment.

Allen – Yeah there is also less commitment, I can’t make a living doing that.

Paul- But you know you don’t have to put forth as much effort. Like I was talking about with the recording aspect of things, you don’t need to get a bunch of money from a label to record, really.

TR- Does that make it easier for labels? Does it take some of the burden off? Id your label, or other labels you hear about repositioning themselves after the influence of mp3s, what’s the general feeling?

Allen- I think everyone is waiting for the technology to catch up so everyone can figure it out. Right now everyone is going,”uh, I don’t know”

Jason- I think that a label, the definition of a label, is going to totally change. It won’t be a label, it won’t be like some place you call home, it will be somebody that works for you.

TR-like booking agents?

Jason- Like a publicist. I think that’s ultimately what they are going to turn into. I mean if everything is just being downloaded, the labels not going to be able to use you as the cash cow, like you’re making hits and whatnot.

TR- The idea of the hit song, has become, that’s how you’re going to make it now. It seems the whole structure for music, even indie music, is that you have to have the hit.

Allen- Yeah.

TR- How do you guys deal with that?

Allen- Trying to write hits man!

Paul- There is a certain amount of truth to that, we’re constantly trying to make better music and make music that more people want to listen to, without compromising our integrity, our sound. It is true; you have to have a hit more or less to make money .

Allen- Or be on Jade tree ( pause).

Jason- There is just so much stuff that goes around and around and one thing effects the other. All connected by some small thread that if you start talking about it you ultimately find out that it’s who you know.

Allen- I think we’re under the old school assertion that if you write music that really matters, even if it’s not an exact hit people will recognize that and see it. Bust your balls and write the best stuff you can, and people will react to that.

Jason- But we’re finding out, we might be slightly disillusioned about that. As it goes along, I’m not saying it’s going to stay like that.

TR- Explain that.

Allen- It depends on how well you’re distributed. We are not distributed as well as we’d like.

Jason- It’s where you are and who you’re working with.

Allen- And you see other bands that have their first record and they put it out on lets say Jadetree or Touch n’ Go, Killrockstars, and nobody knows them but they’ll buy it because they like the other stuff on Killrockstars, you know it has nothing to do with whether they mean it, or integrity, or they busted their ass on it, or they toured the world.

Paul- Without sounding like sour grapes.

Allen- Without sounding like sour grapes, exactly, we’ve been busting our balls.

Jason- We could all have the coolest hairstyles, and be screwing models and whatnot, being in the limelight all the time. You know, you’ve got to be in the right place.

TR- Do you consider yourselves a s the band that carries the standard? To a lot of people you are considered the band that gets in the van and goes.

Allen- I think there’s a payoff to things.

Paul- I honestly believe things do pay off.

Allen- There are success stories of bands like that.

Paul- Perseverance and hard work are always going to pay off whether they’re as big a payoff as you’d expect.

Jason- Generally it just makes you feel good.

Paul- It may lead to something else, but if you work hard at something, it’s going to come around.

Allen- We’re generally of that assumption that if you continue on and work hard enough, that’s what gets us through hard times or bad shows or a bad set of shows. Continue on if you believe in the music. It goes back to if music is cheap and has been devalued everyone is just picking it up for free and you’re not making any money from it, that tends to pull the rug out from underneath you I think.

TR- Do you believe that music has a cultural value like a doctor or a lawyer have a value? Do you think musicians should have a similar position? Or should be taught that way in schools.

Paul- I think it’s very important to have…

Allen- Absolutely, growing up in school, not only does it spread your understanding of other cultures and things like that but it helps in like…

Paul- Bringing them together…

Allen- …math and language. I think it’s a huge deal. My folks are educators, music educators, definitely, I think it is as big a deal as learning to read and write. I think it is that key, I really do because what it opens up, what it adds, in enlightenment, its like the people who go to a big state school and study just business, they take just business courses all throughout college end up as ignorant as ever and as fools in the world with a specialty in one subject as opposed to those who went to a liberal arts school. And I think a liberal arts education is so much better, should be, some of the courses that are required are logic, if everyone took logic in the world I think the world would be a better place. And the same thing with understanding different religions. At least know about it so we can choose…

Paul- Well you eliminate the ignorance of it.

Allen- Whether you like it or not at least you understand it.

TR- What’s the biggest difference you have seen in crowds since the mid-nineties to now?

Allen- I think in the mid nineties there was a certain raison d’être, everybody was, especially from 91 on, there was a certain, everybody knew what you were doing, it had to do with the revolution, the Nirvana revolution. There was a certain ethic, you had certain labels, like Amrep, that represented what was going on, since sounds and trends and styles change all the time things are open as to what is cool. So, most people are sheep, they’ll follow different things and when there’s nothing being handed to them exactly as what is cool at this time, everyone is like “do I think that’s cool, oh, he thinks its cool, yah, its cool!”

TR- There’s more group, more looking for group acceptance?

Allen- I think there is a lot of that, that’s what I think has to do with people standing around at shows. Nobody wants to walk up front in front of a group of people; it’s a group thing. If there is a bunch of people in the back of the room I’ll call them up front, “come on lets make a show, we’re all here” Why come to the show and stand.

Paul- And then they do. If you just tell them.

Allen -Everyone is going, “oh I don’t want to stand up there people will look at my butt.” I think its as dumb as that as silly.

Paul- Someone might see my bald spot.

Allen- Or whatever there little personal issue is. It may seem silly but I think things are that silly. But as I was saying, in the mid nineties and a little earlier, there was a real reason.

Paul- There was a lot more aggression in the music at that time too.

Allen- Right, and it represented, and you see people united in the cause of Limp Bizkit, and the anger generation trying to call it…

TR- Limp Bizkit to me took parts of the old hardcore scene and made it a little bit more danceable in the mosh parts and then they yell. They have the elements but they don’t have the whole picture. They are yelling about nothing.

Allen – Totally

Paul- It’s kind of the Dr. schme effect. The watered down Dr. Pepper version of authentic, its the third generation, fourth generation.

Allen – I think it represents, to a certain extent, however dumb and bunk it is, its still is representative of a lot of people and what they want to hear right now and what is coming up.

TR- How important is the aggression factor in a lot of rock music?

P- I think it’s only important if there is something to be aggressive about.

Allen – But I also think rock and roll is reckless and aggressive and is supposed to be dangerous, and if its not, I mean you’re not going to call Belle and Sebastion rock and roll. It’s pop music or its popular or whatever and it falls roughly into the same, it’s not jazz.

Jason- Every level of music from Seals and Croft to Deep Purple to Zepelin, to Limp Bizkit, all that shit is just an upheaval of expression and some of it is bullshit of course, there is always someone bullshitting somebody else, but seems to me there’s a lot of angry kids out there right who’s white trash parents left them home to watch Springer. I mean, I know a ton of them. Everybody does their different way, some people moan about it some people want to kill people. Everybody has got their different way.

TR- How many bands do you see like yourself out there?

Jason- Very few.

TR- And did you ever feel like you were one in a group?

Allen- Our style of music?

TR- Yes, and you’re genre.

Paul- Considering we came up in the nineties, started touring in the nineties, we were definitely a part of a large group. We all had friends all over the country in bands, like and unlike our band. We were friends with the Neurosis guys. Seriously, it went that far in diversity, but we feel very alone, right now. So many of them don’t exist anymore…

Allen- For different reasons

Paul- and we’re a little out of touch with some younger bands, but there are still a lot of bands that we know, but its definitely declined. And, you know, we’re definitely not young and kids, we’ve been doing this a while so.

TR- Sometimes I think that’s why Jadetree does so well. Its because there are less bands, everyone who was a former somebody end up in this band that ends up on Jadetree.

Paul- Well, there has definitely been a cleansing in the amount of bands that are out there. Good and bad. It’s a shame that I’ve seen so many great bands break up, like Jawbox for one, but J. went on to Burning Airlines which is equally as great I think.

Allen- I think there’s a lot of younger bands see our lead and respect it and follow it, that we just don’t know about or are not thinking about

Paul- It’s hard for us to keep our perspective sometimes.

Allen- It’s hard to keep our perspective, its hard to see the forest through the trees, we’re so in the middle of it. If we got away from it for a while we could like see different bands. We play with bands all the time that sound like us and have taken different ideals, or have taken different things, that’s always a good thing, its encouraging to me.

TR- Do you see…when they write the book lets say you know 20 years 30 years down the road when they write a book about the time period do you guys, now I’m not trying to make you guys sound egotistical or anything, it’s a real honest question, do you guys see yourselves as being one of those bands that they are going to say this is the band that had the heart and the core of that whole time period…of that type of genre of music…if they are going to talk about bands In the 90s through the next millennium whatever if you look back, the bands that were not on major labels, the bands that didn’t get crazy play on MTV but were one of the bands that influenced another generation.

Allen- It’s hard to guess that…I don’t know if we typify that but it would be neat if we did.

Paul- I think we’re not well known enough to make that much of a mark at this point.

Allen- Although there are lesser known bands that have sold much less records that you know tend to have a longer lasting effect…I kind of got the feel of it between Lula Di Venia and Starlust is that the legend of Shiner grew…

Paul- Not because of press…

Allen- Not because of press but lack of because there was like “aw man there’s this band where are they at” they would pass Lola DiVenia however either online or whatever (everyone laughs) it got around and, so as a result when the legend had grown, I mean legend, the word of the band had grown a lot more than I thought.

Paul- Strictly by word of mouth.

Allen- Yeah, by word of mouth…bands all over the US and Canada and Japan and Europe, I get emails from out of the country all the time.

Paul- And we don’t have distribution out of the country.

Allen- Well we do…Southern distributes Lula and Splay.

TR- Right, some of the albums Southern distributes and…what’s the distribution thing for this new one? They do their own?

Paul- No, it’s a company called Simbiotic.

TR- Right…no, cause I’ve know guys…

Allen- It’s just not out in stores as we would like because for one reason or another you know either…

TR- Well it seems like distributors are acting like major labels in some ways…distributors, to even get in their catalog, you know what I mean? Or to even get orders and stuff…it seems like they’ve taken on more power.

Allen- Ya, you have to pass their test or something…. like it used to be…you know I don’t like anchovies on my pizza but I’ll sell it to people that want anchovies on their fuckin’ pizza you know what I’m saying? So it has to do with…

Jason- Trends.

TR- You think it’s trends.

Allen- So I would just sell it, even if you didn’t love the music you would still get it out and sell it if it’s going to sell you know

Jason- If we were on a certain label and so-and-so liked us, that the guys at such and such distributors looked up to they’d like it too.

Allen- But why is it about that? Why…

Jason- That’s exactly right, why?

Allen- If you have a trinket shop, you’re gonna have some trinkets you like and some you don’t like but you’re still going to try to sell them all

Jason- I know, it sucks.

Allen- But why is that?

TR-I just noticed that with Koch and these guys called the Orchard that seem to be making it more difficult in what they’re doing it that, if you didn’t sell enough they put your stuff on sale for you without you even knowing, so all of the sudden your record was selling below cost so they could just get it out of their warehouse…better than returning it but still it was a weird thing that I saw going on…so are you pretty happy at O and O?

Allen- Well, we’re happy that cause at a certain point we went through a lot of problems trying to find somebody to put it out.

TR- But that’s crazy to me

Allen- It’s crazy to me too!

TR- Can we talk about that?

Paul- I’ll talk about that

TR- Bring that on…that’s news to me…that’s shocking!

Paul- That’s why it took three years to get a record out between Lulu and Starlust because we talked to so many labels that were lukewarm and didn’t want to commit to us.

Allen- Cause we’re not the flavor of the moment…were making music that’s not get up kids or is not…

Jason- However, if you think about it like this, if we were given the opportunity to be with trendy people do you think that we could turn into trendy?

Allen- It has nothing to do with that, I really believe that under our noses at times trends change and we continue making music and have this set of songs and things move along we still this set of songs in this era and although we did find a distributor or label with Zero Hour before they went belly up, we actually….

Paul- We were in the middle of making a record

Allen- For months, months we’re talking about. It’s not as if there was no interest, there was interest, we had management here in town that really believed in us, CEC management which manages Ben Folds Five, you know what I’m saying, but the majors, we weren’t going to write any hits for major labels we did a bunch of shows at Mercury lounge and the Troubador in LA…

TR- You did showcases? Is that what you mean?

Paul- We played shows that a bunch of labels showed up to, we didn’t do showcases.

Jason- Does the music make the trend or does the trend make the music, I personally think that the trend makes the music, it seems like it at this point.

Allen- Well, I think the music happens through an influential band that happens to hit for whatever reason there’s that je’ne sa quoi about a certain thing that everybody flocks to.

Paul- Yeah, nobody picks what the sound of it’s going to be they’re just waiting for it, it hits and then everything follows.

Allen- It’s part of the fun of the music business it that you never know what’s gonna, I think that’s neat…

Jason: Basis of my question…

Allen- What happened is, I think it’s cause and effect, you have something that’s going to happen because it’s exciting and cool like At The Drive-In right now cause their tearing it up and they have a great live show, you’re going to find a lot more bands going nuts at their live show with afros…and everyone else is going to follow that, but for that moment for a year or two At The Drive-In is very exciting. That happens in the mean time while you are trying to find an outlet for this set of songs and by the time it comes around it’s songs written three years ago.

TR- But you had the album pretty much recorded.

Paul- the album was recorded…

Allen- When Zero Hour went belly up.

Paul- …then we were trying to find somebody to put it out after that, finally decided, I just called Bill Stevenson which I’ve known for years just being a fan of the Descendents first of all and then asked him if he wanted to do the record and within a week it was like a done deal and they were putting the record out and we were finishing mixing the record and it was like a done deal, so it went, that was really easy…

Allen- As far as getting the record out it was the right thing for us to do to not dwell too long trying to find, I think for a long time we were looking for making the step up, kind of like go from single a to double a to triple a to the big show and I think…

Paul- …the thing is we know how the indie music world works.

Allen- You know we wanted to step up and didn’t feel we needed to solicit ourselves all the time, so we came maybe lazier and complacent for 6 or 8 months and before you know it a year has gone and you think things should have happened… why is this…why are people not going nuts for this stuff, you know and you know it happens underneath you. We needed to get the record out O and O was perfect for it, got it out and it’s done pretty well but it’s not exactly the perfect home for us…the distribution is mainly the thing that’s disappointing. The label itself has done very well and has worked hard.

Paul- and has a lot of potential to be a great label.

Allen- Yeah…they have every potential in the world to be great, and we think we’ve upped or helped their position in the public eye some to a certain extent…

Paul- diversifying their roster.

TR-You guys going to do another album? Soonish? If you…

Paul- By this time next year it’ll be out.

TR-Okay so a year from now. What about your experience with Desoto records? In the past and present?

Allen- They have always been enamored with Shiner. We’re not necessarily flavor of the month, but they’re the reason we are still here because they got us such an initial…

Paul- They gave us the first hand up and it was a big hand up.

TR- any experience working with J. Robbins?

Paul- I’m very impressed with where he’s gotten himself, he’s doing very well. He’s leaned a lot about recording records in a very short amount of time, I think, in the whole scheme of things…really started really doing it the last three years-four years

TR- Yeah, working over at Inner Ear in Virginia, he’s going to be one of my heroes forever.

Paul- He’s definitely hero worthy, cause he’s always moving forward I think.

TR- Well, is there anything you guys want to say or get any message out on something I missed?

Paul- Come to the shows.

Allen- Come see what it’s all about…they’ve heard about Shiner…I think what happens is, one of the things we struggle with is maybe changing the name in order to just have people go, so they don’t go oh it’s Shiner I know what they sound like, they sound like Splae or I had that first record, are they still around, what are they doing?

Jason- Why aren’t they huge?

Paul- Yeah, why aren’t they huge? Do they suck? Why are they moving around labels they must suck? Why have they changed band members…well the guy must suck, he must be an asshole…I must be an asshole and I think it’s hard to erase that stigmatism or you know what I’m saying or that stigma or whatever.

TR- You didn’t change labels for any bad reasons?

Paul- No we didn’t get kicked off any label at all, in fact the Hitit! thing wasn’t supposed to be just Hitit!

Allen: It is a DeSoto release.

Paul- Because DeSoto couldn’t get the record out…busy with the Jawbox record and we were feeling very very pumped to get going, you know get Lulu out so we had the opportunity to get involved with Hitit! which gave some more options for us to put it out and you know business took over from there…went south.

Allen- So for whatever reason, and I think people tend to assume that they know what a certain band’s about or not about and then when people come see it they’re “damn you guys are this and this but you’re also this and this and that’s another thing that we’re writing diverse music if you listen to one track to another track we’re not like emo core we’re not rap rock or we’re not easily classified and I think that, while it’s one of our strongest points is our Achilles heel also because it takes a while to really figure out what it’s all about we’re not just going to lump it in we’re not gonna do one song over and over and be gone. We’re trying to make music for a long time, have a roster of albums that grow and evolve and do things the right way that all our heroes did like Led Zepelin they didn’t make a bad record there are bad songs you know what I’m saying but every record was a growth, and they made smart changes and wrote songs that were just kind of awesome all the way around.

Paul- And the Who also, The who is a better example because their music changed so much from the beginning to their peak which…

Jason- They gained and alienated fans with each release.

Allen- That’s the archetype that we’re shooting for and that’s not necessarily followed by a lot of bands. What it takes is commitment from a label, and commitment from your fans to listen to it but I don’t know if you are gonna get that in today’s.

Paul- Short attention span.

Allen- And other things to occupy your time, you could go buy three albums at the record store and that’ll last you three weeks, you could stare at the album artwork while you’re smokin a dubie and listening to your headphones, that made it for, when I was growing up in the 70s.

Paul- made it very personal.

Allen- Yeah and right now you don’t need that stupid artwork or whatever, I got this and I’m playing Quake while I’m also sending emails or whatever…back to the devalued.

TR- Becomes a background.

Paul- It’s become the soundtrack for your life.

Allen- Exactly and it has less to do with, but what we’ve all found out with our fans and there is a core of about, actually I have no idea how many, but I know that those fans that are truly committed do get it and are moved by all the little subtle nuances and things that we have.

Paul- It definitely makes it worthwhile when somebody comes up and you can truly see that they understand and it affects them and I would like it to affect more people but it certainly helps when some people really get it.

Allen- I think we’re cultivating a certain core, cult audiences. Certainly not to equate ourselves with Rush, but Rush is going to ship a million records and they are going to play probably to the same fans every town and in the same arena every time they come through cause they’re not going to gain many new fans, maybe a few each time but those Rush fans…

TR- Someone’s younger brother.

Allen- Right, that’s what it is but without having publicity or a million articles or something like that, Rush can continue to exist and have a great living you know they make I don’t know probably a million dollars a fuckin’ concert or some shit, who knows

TR- But still they make royalties off their old, you know YYZ

Allen- But they’re doing well, They put out new records and I think it’s possible, I don’t want to just do that, I want new fans all the time I want to create new and relevant music all the time, I want girls to come to the show and not just guys who listen to Rush.

Jason- How many people do you think downloaded the last Rush mp3?

Allen- Probably quite a few, you know there is so many Dungeons and Dragons playing nerds that are downloading that shit.

Jason- That don’t already own it and have owned it for years and years and years?

Allen- who knows?

TR- Well they download so they can have it at work.

Allen- Exactly.

TR- They can put it on their computer at work.

Allen- they send it over, email it over, waiting so they can have it at work.

Shiner’s most recent release is “Starless” on Owned and Operated Records. You can buy the album at Owned and Operated or listen to the album at the band’s website, Shiner.net.

Umair: ha. what is it that you want from me, exactly?

Jelefant:…Ok, let me start with this…

I agree with your slogans, I’m a believer in ethical capitalism. The problem I run into is how to act like the theories we believe in, even if incrementally. From your writing I gain insight into ways to convey to top-down orgs how they can begin the transformation process. Thanks for that. What’s incongruous to me is the rapid-fire leaflet dropping many of us then utilize to share our vision (status updates, posts, comments). These don’t seem to match the how we can start following our own slogans.

One ongoing missing piece is the foundation on which communities can test out these theories. Where is the capital going to come from that supports this movement?

Thanks,

-Jason

The Renaissance is the steamroller of western art. It continues to smash and wreck new spores of ideas under its gigantic steel wheel. Craft, boldness, literal, digestible, all continue to rule the realm. Picasso’s 2-d plane-breaking yearn for seeing different hasn’t survived the steamroller, nor has the Abstract Expressionists’ cry for freedom from the obvious. Look at the work being made by the folks in the “Work of Art” studio, almost all of it could call the Renaissance it’s daddy. If we visited a studio in the 19th century we’d expect to see much of the same stuff.

What’s missing? The most important historical art-battle of the past 50 years that art HAS won against the “Steamroller” is  “INCLUSION,” though you wouldn’t know that by listening to the judges on this show. Inclusive art enjoyment and critique is simply this:

I do not look at art through MY subjective eyes; I look at art through NEW and OPEN objective eyes…

… I work hard, knowing the artist has worked even harder to show me something special from their unique vantage point. I don’t have to like it; it’s not about my preference. The onus is on me to learn, to study and engage, not for the artist to make it easy for me to understand.

If the artist calls the piece a portrait, and it doesn’t have a face, then I better get thinking deeply about what is going on here, NOT to dismiss it as a non-portrait.

This is what we westerners keep learning from un-guided travel, cooking and eating, open-source technology, the Internet and social media, reading and research, HURRAH for inclusive thinking! If BP had considered inclusive thinking versus doing it the way they’ve always been, maybe that disaster could have been averted! But for some reason, Art, which is supposed to be leading the way forward has been rolled back 200 years for a TV show. Ugh.

It should not be lost on anyone that the woman who chose to work in pattern and abstraction was the loser and not that dude who did the clown fiasco. She got Renaissance-steam-rolled! Her portrait might have captured the assignment the best! Who said a portrait had to be a face? Man, if I handed in a portrait that was a plain old face when I was in art school, nearly 15 years ago, I’d get an F!

It’s also a bummer they gave Nao Bustamante a hard time. The judges were perturbed they had to engage her art in an un-literal 3-D space. Um, it’s a pretty standard art-school homework assignment to do un-literal work in 3-D space. What would they say about Eva Hesse, Ann Hamilton,  Andrew Goldsworthy, or even for the love of all things 3-D, Christo and Jean-Claude!?!

Ok, ok, maybe it makes for good TV? Maybe it will bring art to a wider audience? All I know is the Renaissance is still king, queen and the kitchen sink. Its kicking ass and taking names, and continues to crush all the new ideas that lie in its way. “Work of Art” is no exception.

We are now entering the Lace Economy (exiting the Web + Bubble Economy).

The Lace Economy is both a fine-tuning of our networks and relationships, and a demand for services and products that are well crafted, genuine, and trend towards supporting the local and regional.

Fine Tuning:
New networks are being amassed through a mix of web-based tools (Facebooks, LinkedIn) and traditional channels (networking, associations). These form into a tangled, limitless, and underproductive web. Though there is an intoxicating excitement in the chaos of tangled relationships, the ever-increasing girth of networks makes these connections fragile and meaningless. In the Lace Economy, networks will be filtered, gathered and sewn into manageable, identifiable, and productive patterns.

Genuine:
Branding, advertising and communications will continue on a shift away from “attraction” towards “resonation.” Bright, shiny, and flashy objects might gain immediate attention, but a real resonation through matching specific ideas, services and products to the desires and needs of a market will lead to sustainable and genuine relationships. Opportunity will arrive through resonation.

Local & Regional:
The first wave of this Fine Tuning and Genuine is appearing within local and regional movements, primarily through food and craft. The slow-food, farmer’s market, and quality handmade trends point to an audience making purchases of well-made, well-crafted, nourishing, and sound products and services. Restaurants, as well as consumers, are seeking local produce to influence and boost their menus. Farmers in turn are supplying diverse regional specialties in opposition to the cookie-cutter flavors found in national chain restaurants and blanket-marketed by national brands. “You can only get it here,” will increase.

Important Points:
-    The Lace Economy will reward and invite ventures that foster uniqueness and offer quality
-    Individuals will no longer be caught in a web; they will spin their own tightly knit lace of relationships, both real and virtual
-    There will be a deeper reliance on strong partnerships and trusted collaboration
-    Shift from blanket “wide net” approach to specificity in messaging and markets
-    Markets will seek well-made, well-crafted, nourishing, and sound products and services
-    The immediate shift is a turn towards the local and regional

The Lace Economy has arrived. The grass roots are strong, and national brands, such as Starbucks (locally branded shops), and media outlets such as AOL and Yahoo (local news sites) and the New York Times (local neighborhood blogs), have already begun to interpret and act on the data. This shift is not an about-face from where we’ve been, it’s a fine-tuning of what we have into something genuine with a greater value.

I am thankful for the hidden brilliances in our daily lives, things we can all share, but are unfortunately more difficult to come by within the “developing world.” I’m thankful for these things, which I take for granted each day: roads, heat & hot water, food, clothes, shelter, infrastructure, plumbing, drinking water, time to do things beyond work, materials to create things beyond necessity, safety, medicine, and more. I am thankful for all these things as they are inspirational, are born from unbounded innovations to make all of our lives better, more comfortable, for us to be well and healthy and to survive (and thrive within) the many trials and hurdles of life. These seemingly simple things lay the foundation upon which I can be thankful for all else.

Many of my fellow Hoosiers have written #Tweetsgiving 2009 posts. Below is a short list:

Sara McGuyer

Scott Wise

Nicki Laycoax

The Pixies owe us nothing. The elder siblings of our alt-rock post-punk revolution, we look to them, yearning for the brilliance of the late-80s surge of misfits, outcasts, and town criers who led us away from stadium rock and tight pants and towards the emotional sleeves of wheat paste, second-hand duds, and endless cigarette monologues. Their mix of mind-opening lyrics and whine-high instrumentation was the minstrel music, the bang anthems, for a few generations of college-smarty-pants who sought a less than hardcore way to be edgier than the mainstream lives they would soon live themselves.

The Pixies performance threw us cake and we passively mashed it on our faces. We, the angst riddled pilgrims of anti-rock, lost causes, and the corporate plundering of all things cool, we bent over and forgave the band in order to get our sentimental fixes. The snake will eat its tail. The Pixies should eat themselves, blow smoke, and release short documentaries that highlight Kim Deal’s genius, because she’s more genuine than all the name changes Frank Black can muster. I don’t care anymore that he’s a master song craftsman. He drags the band down to a desperate level of agacant and ennuyeux. There, I said it. But I don’t totally blame them. I blame us all for conjuring them out of middle-life to bloat-belly pantomime sentimental catch-phrase-tunes that have become the validation of Gen X excuses and the lullabies for the Gen Y complaints.

I was like nearly everyone else in the crowd, counting songs, flipping through my fingers to pin-down the dates of when and where I was when I heard this one, or that one. How I could stamp my passport of alt-rock cred on the loose connections of how I knew them first, before my friends, before you posers. The glee of so many in the audience who shimmied here and there couldn’t trump the slouch-slacked de-enthusiasm of the gray-shorn former punks who kept within themselves as best they could, hiding their colors, playing the role, and mending their own failures as a rock-star franchisees through the fabricated bliss of rehashed old songs.

The band could care less. Frank looked out at us and saw dollar signs through the haze. Truth hurts, but we deserve it. Kim tried her outbound hardest to break free, spicing the event with the gems that make live performance addictive, but even she seemed fearful to add too much time to the playlist. Nobody wants to piss off Frank. We’ve all learned that.

But wait, since when are the Pixies the Grateful Dead playing to an audience of set list fanatics, who, for the most part besides the pockets of psyched pogo-ers and overdrunk party-queens doing the swin, slouched passively letting the songs wash over them. Sure we all did our alt-rock due diligence of head bops, shoulder slides, and smile-glances at our friends, lipping the lyrics to our favorite parts, pointing to ourselves to say “this one is mine.” Since when are we all so boring? Was it Chicago? Will NYC put them to the challenge? Will the Boston show be insane?

I sought the energy of the night, not from the band, but from the eked enthusiasm of my audience-mates. The band was dormant (well, not David Loverling, or Kim Deal, let’s say Frank was the pantomime). Either way, the crowd now owns the Pixies songbook, we’ve ingested it, it tattoos our soul. But we were not all together now, singing along together within the songs. We sing the songs alone, in bubbles of our own memories, ignoring the liveness of this live-moment. The band was a spectacle, an act, a recital. They were the zoned-out TVs that we couch-surf amidst. We sit cross-legged in comfy clothes with fuzzy slippers saying, “that’s my song, I was here when I heard it.” “That one is my song, I remember where I was.” Wait. Let me text my friends.

Frank Black is a businessman. He should have found a different path to a paycheck than the Doolittle tour. Seemingly bored from playing long-old tracks his conceit and cynicism was hard to tamp down. I do not understand why Kim and the rest of them put up with Frank, maybe they can’t refuse the paycheck either. Maybe that’s all the Pixies ever really were, a great songwriting record recording team, maybe my expectations are unruly.

Screw that, I hate feeling taken advantage of and I hate feeling manipulated. I admit it, I relinquished myself to this Pixies tour to finger-plug the gaps in my de-punked life. To hold the foundation of the who I think I am in place long enough for the next greatest hits or reunion tour to hit the streets. Frank, you deserve my money, but you’re not getting anymore, at least not until you decide to do a tour of Surfa Rosa, play another unexpected third encore of more of my favorite songs (which was the only part of your performance you seemed really jazzed about), and I’ll shill out another paycheck-worth of tickets just to watch you defeat us. In the meantime, I’ll download the ringtones.